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I just want a different plan B for women, because right now you know their plan. Their plan B is like working a retail job or being a parent in a school or a CNA. And not that we don't need those roles. But when we talk about the pay gap and in the genders, well, it's because if they're not going to college right after high school, guys who have like just a half of a brain go, oh, I'm going to go to private drive a 16 Wheeler, you know, drive a dump truck going to construction.

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They're instantaneously making 2 to 3 times what the counterparts of the women that are going into the other roles. Welcome to the Builder Hacks podcast, your go to destination for cutting edge strategies, time tested systems, and invaluable insights to revolutionize your construction business and elevate your life. Join your host, Nate Piper and Keith Mills. Seasoned contractors who are not just in the trenches, but are also pioneering the future of the industry through Concord University.

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In each episode, we dive deep into the minds of the industry's most accomplished building professionals, uncovering their secrets to success and sharing actionable tips to help you thrive. Whether you're a seasoned veteran or just starting out, our goal is to empower you to build a brighter future for yourself and for America. Tune in. Level up and let's build a better tomorrow together.

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This is the Builder Hacks podcast. Build your future. Building America.

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Well, you know, it's interesting. You brought up a lot of, a lot of topics that they kind of touch into the core essence of people, right? And and kind of like what motivates them and what doesn't motivate. I know for me personally, I, I've worked with a lot of young men, and one of the reasons why I like working a lot of young men, and I really try, to pull them into this industry, kind of get them out of computers and bar life and things of that nature.

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Just because I started seeing such a big increase in, depression, anxiety, suicidal kind of components and all these things in young guys where they weren't really being able to, to rise to their fullest potential. And part of that was just them not being comfortable with where they were going in life. And I think women have the same thing.

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I can't speak for all women because that's why you get to be their advocate. But I know for young men we've been able to, like, take away the things that that make them feel like young men. by being able to let them be able to kind of be more creative. The reason that we're really basically in this trade decline and infrastructure decline is because we're not encouraging any of them to go into that field.

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We're really encouraging them to go to college, get a general studies degree, get a computer, sit in a room, do the thing. And a lot of them, you know, just start falling into this point of depression. And I've had some guys that they follow the track. They went to college, they got multiple degrees. they get off into a job and they hate it and they've never done anything.

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And then all of a sudden they end up in my world. They never picked up a screwdriver. They never picked up a circular saw. They've never had a tool. They've never really felt anything. And you. And when I interview them, I've seen them like their eyes are glossed over. They don't have a soul. And then the next thing you know, you put a tool in their hand and all of a sudden they do something with it.

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And now they feel like they're champions, like they've done it, like they've got confidence. And every day it's just a building, a confidence building a car building confidence. And I think that's missed. I think, I think as a society we've messed up by not encouraging kids to work with their hands to be creative. The movement into I remember my sister, she was don't know, second, third grade.

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She went out to the garage and we had all these paints because we would make yard signs for holidays and just, you know cut out the wood, stick it outside. But she found this, you know, these tough paints. And she found an old T-shirt she started making of paints, designs on her t shirts. And then she turned around, sold them, and she loved it.

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And she did that all through high school. And then she got engaged in, in other kind of, building activities and being able to create these things. But I think it started with just having arts and crafts. And I think you're right about having a camp. I think you're absolutely 100% correct about having them be in the camps and being engaged, because those are things that last long term and kind of opened our eyes.

00:04:49:28 - 00:05:12:17

I'm encouraged. I'm fascinated by everything you're doing. I always say that, you know, women love power tools for the same reason men do. Yeah. You feel powerful when you're. You think that there's fun, right? And so once you get past the the scared part of, oh, my God, what's this thing do? And you learn just a little bit, you're like, oh, watch out, I got a drill in my hand.

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What are we doing today? You know, I paid by, when I was, when I was ripping out my shower in this house, which I will never, ever, ever do again, you know? I mean, like, it was just. I had this conversation answer with somebody. I said, there's certain things that you underestimate when somebody gives you a quote for something, and I don't care what it is.

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Right? Like, you know, I, I was actually talking the other day about social media stuff. I was like, you know, before I knew how much went into content creation, I was like, not paying somebody that much money to that. All they're doing is making a video. Oh, right. You know, and now I'm like, how much did you. Okay.

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Perfect. Right. You know. Yeah. but that's the same thing, like in a lot of construction stuff. Right. You know, homeowners are like, you know, oh, I saw that heart, you know, and I was in that shower. I'm like, shower. I've done the tile backsplash as I've done floors. It looks fine, right? I'll do the shower. I'm so clean that I did it.

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I'm never going to do that again. But when I was I would I mean, I didn't have the girls knock out the tile. That was a disaster. But then you got, you know, a bazillion of the screws in all of the paper, you know? And so, my oldest had to sleep over one night. They knew her mom really well.

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And so I decided that I was like, I'm going to put both these girls, you know, they're not doing anything. They're on their phone. And I was like, hey, how are you guys? Want to take out screws? I'll pay you $0.10 per screw to take the, you know, take out. And so they're just going to tell me, get their safety glasses on and then each have their drill.

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And I'm like push harder, push harder. But I'm trying to get it out and like push harder, you know. And so they're learning. And I mean they had they they still talk about it. They remember that, you know like that was how they learned. And that's great practice I think they think I paid it $30 or something. That's cheap labor because labor, such cheap labor.

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But yeah. No, I mean I think that it is it's it's giving the confidence. And, you know, part of it is to me is just changing the conversation instead of, you know, going to high school graduation parties and saying, where are you going to college? Saying, what are your plans after high school? And that comes also down to the, to the, the, the mom part, because there is a societal pressure very much of where you're you you're not only are kids getting asked that, all of the moms are getting asked, where's your where's your daughter going?

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College. How where's your you know, whatever it is, we've got to change that. And I think there's really a window right now. There's a movement there is less of. There is there's more open mindedness to alternatives, but not for everybody. And it's, it's there's there's definitely an element of pressure. And so and the kids feel it a lot like, this is what I'm supposed to.

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You know, I always have thought go ahead. Well, I think you're absolutely right. And and that part is we have an education system that is not benefiting, our children and it's not benefiting our future. And and we spend so much time, creating this narrative for them that they never have an opportunity to think for themselves. They never have an opportunity to kind of dive into it.

00:08:30:20 - 00:08:54:13

You know, I was an athlete and I, I love playing sports that I played a bunch of different sports in high school and played it in college and wanted to proceed forward into going into professional, but that wasn't really my calling. But that was what everybody wanted to do at that point in time. And that was kind of like my, my entry level, but that was being forced down.

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That was what the society was saying. Oh, you want to be successful in life, then you need to be a professional athlete because they're the ones that make the good. Then I went off to college and they're like, okay, you got to get a business degree and you got to go to the stock market. You got to go to Wall Street, you got to go.

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And I did it, and I hated it. And it's like, okay, I then I then go and I pick up, you know, back into construction. I'm doing dealing with all this stuff. Fell in love. Right. But kids aren't having the opportunity and they're being told and forced and they follow the line and they they have to walk that line of going through.

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Okay, this is what expected of me. This is what I wanted to do. And they keep falling and they never find their passion. And they end up in these realms of of corporate America where they're just miserable for 15 to 20 years. And then they get out of corporate America. They said, well, I'm well, I'm alive. I can I could do whatever I want.

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I don't have to, like, be at the coffee maker at 830 and I don't have to take my break at 11 or, you know, whatever it is, I don't know. I didn't do corporate America well, so. But I mean, that that piece that you're talking about and I actually I want to put this out to all of our listeners, though, is the fact that I challenge you as parents, because this isn't something that I didn't do until I realized that page was like we'd had all the same conversations that most parents have of their kids, but when we had the conversation with pages a year, you know, you're going to go to college, you're gonna

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go ahead and do. And she she was literally going to go ahead and be either anesthesiologist or radiologist. I always forget which one it was. So but she was going to do that, which is obviously, as you know, a 7 to 10 year track to be able to get it out into the real world and do things. And this whole time I'm an entrepreneur, I own a business.

00:10:32:11 - 00:10:48:15

I'm in construction, and I'm never having that conversation until she got to her senior year. So in the fall of her senior year, I looked at Alice and my wife, and I'm like, you know, the thing? And that's Paige's mom. So I'm like, the thing is, we've never had this conversation. It's always been, you've got to do this.

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You've got to do this, you've got to do this. And I'm like, that may not be the thing that she wants to do, and I don't. I never want to see her do something she's forced to do. I mean, there's always things that we have to do in our lives, but I don't want to be her, to be forced that you've got to go to college.

00:11:01:06 - 00:11:18:16

Unless that's the decision she wants to make. And we had that conversation, and it was almost like you could see the weight being lifted off of her. So whenever you had that conversation that she's like, there are other options, you know? And she's been to, I mean, and I go, there's an event that Nate and I go to every year and stuff like that.

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She's been to that event with us multiple times. She's been there the event, the more I met you, and she's been to those events multiple times for the pieces and parts, because she's not going to sit there through the whole thing. She just doesn't want to. And she hears it from me, and she does want to listen to me about it, so she doesn't tell anybody else about it.

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And by going ahead and giving her that opportunity, it did change things. And especially after I mean, she graduated in 2020. So she was, you know, during that time, unfortunately, everything was happening with Covid. So she didn't have a normal senior year for that last half of the year. And I don't think she would have been ready to go to school at that point or do that virtually.

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And she definitely wouldn't have excelled on the virtual side of things. And now she's been in construction for four years, you know, whereas, you know, people who graduated with her are three years into their degree. Well, that's what it comes down to. And whether they'll come out with anything that they like and how many of them. You also look at the other part of it because they say there are so many people who go to college now, the the dropout rate from whenever they enroll as freshmen to one of their graduating seniors is almost 50% of the people drop out of college with a huge amount of debt by the time they do that.

00:12:18:09 - 00:12:34:24

For a lot of them. And that's the pieces. Paige has been making money pages out on her own. Now her and her boyfriend live together. She's got her own first car that she's paid for by herself without any financing help from us. So she's gone ahead and building the life that she wants to go ahead and build. And it was the right choice for her, is what it came down to.

00:12:34:24 - 00:12:51:27

And I think that that's a part I brought to the parents is have that conversation and let your children realize there's other opportunities other than what they're being fed while they're at school or what they're like. You said their friends are talking about going to school, or maybe that they're hearing from your parents, their parents, friends and always asking that question, where are you going to college?

00:12:52:03 - 00:13:08:19

It doesn't have to be that route. It could be construction. It could be being an entrepreneur. So there's a thousand different things that are out there. And I think that's part of where the challenge comes in now is we don't let them explore it and figure it out for themselves. Right. And I always say you can always go back to college.

00:13:08:21 - 00:13:36:20

People say, well, you need to go and, you know, grow up. Well, let me tell you, if you're not still living with your mom and dad when you're 19 and you're on paying your own bills, you're going to grow up to, right, like real fast. And so, I mean, part of it is just like we're enabling our children, I think way too much, you know, but it it's it is so interesting I the people that I my had a wonderful woman who when I was an undergrad is a traditional student.

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She was 45 going back for her bachelor's degree and was so knowledgeable. Started a business right when she got done. Super successful. And when I I've interviewed probably 600 to 700 law school students in my career, to be first year associates or summer associates, and the ones that had 5 or 10 years of corporate experience before they went back to law school were always like head and shoulders above everybody else.

00:14:11:29 - 00:14:46:14

And so, you know, I just want a different plan B for women, because right now, you know, their plan, their plan B is like working a retail job or being a parent and a school or a CNA, and not that we don't need those roles. But when we talk about the pay gap and in the genders, it's because if they're not going to college right after high school, guys who have like just a half of a brain go, well, I'm going to go grab that, drive a 16 Wheeler, you know, drive the damn truck going to construction.

00:14:46:14 - 00:15:10:09

They're instantaneously making 2 to 3 times what the counterparts of the women that are going into the other roles are. And it's like, it's not because they're men and women, it's because they're doing two different jobs and we're just not even providing those as options. Yeah, so go back to college later, but do something to figure out yourself first.

00:15:10:11 - 00:15:32:13

You know, I personally believe, you know, I, I went to college. it didn't benefit me. It gave me it it taught me some other life skills. Right? It taught me how to like, you know, interact with others. And it taught me some writing abilities. And it taught me, you know, more or less how to engage with other people.

00:15:32:15 - 00:15:51:26

But I didn't use any of the stuff that I learned in college to become an entrepreneur. I didn't learn any of that stuff to actually make money. Like like when we start looking at our education system. And I think that's kind of what we're talking about right now, is that when we look at our education system, we look like it has to be this way, right?

00:15:51:28 - 00:16:12:20

Like women have this role, men have this role. This is the path that you have to do. I for my stats. I don't care if you're male or female. I want you to just be able to do the function right. I like it, it does not matter to me. I don't care what I care about is that, hey, we're getting the job done.

00:16:12:20 - 00:16:27:02

We're doing what we say that we're going to do be we're getting better at it. It's we're just all following the path of the greatness to be able to get onto it. I don't care if I was a if I was at a war zone, I wouldn't care if it was a man or a woman right next to me.

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As long as you're firing, you're both in the same direction that I'm fired, right? I don't care, right? Like, I think that's part of the problem that we have, is that we have this divide that men are supposed to do one thing, and when we're supposed to do, you know, we're all kind of equal in our abilities to do things.

00:16:41:11 - 00:17:11:02

Let's just do that. Right. The second part of this educational problem that I have is that. When are we allowing people to actually join the workforce? Because when I was a kid, I was joined in the workforce at like ten, right? I had a newspaper route. I, you know, so Candy, in school, I was, mowing lawns. I was painting fences, like, I joined early and now I had I had a, I had, jobs in high school.

00:17:11:02 - 00:17:31:24

I had jobs in college. I was engaged with other people. I was testing things out. What do I like? What do I not like all these things? But now I'm interviewing guys that have multiple degrees who never had a job in their entire life. What is the problem with that? Like you've never punched the clock. You've never showed up.

00:17:31:24 - 00:17:56:24

You've never done anything like this is a problem. Like they've been. They've been, baby. They've been colder. They've been. They've had cars. They've had their own apartment. They've had all this. But they've never worked the job to like. Okay, so how did you pay for this? Oh, my parents paid. That's a problem. If we're not teaching children how to be independent, then what are we doing once they get through all this education?

00:17:56:27 - 00:18:22:02

And I really believe universities and colleges should be paying the most income tax into the government, then we should be as as individuals, because we're basically taking our money, not educating the kids and then keeping all the capital. So but that's my bell tootin horn. But really, they jumped up on a soapbox. Yeah. But I do think that that's part of the problem that we have with education.

00:18:22:02 - 00:18:41:15

It's like, what are we doing here? How are we going to get them engaged? Because if we're getting children, because in the construction world, your body is going to start to fail, well, you can't do it consistently. And what I found is somewhere around that age of 35, you cannot be out there doing the same thing over and over and over, right?

00:18:41:15 - 00:19:04:16

You have to elevate up into management around the age of 30. But but you've got between the ages of 15 to 35. That's 20 years of, of physical education that you could be earning money. And guys that skip college and they go straight into the trades. Somewhere around year two, they're making between 75 and $125,000 a year. Yep.

00:19:04:22 - 00:19:27:08

With no debt under that training. And they got they've got cars, they've got houses, they've got they're being established in life. We're talking about like this is where I'm going to get political for half a second, which I don't really like to, but I, I'm just I feel like we're in that conversation. So we'll have it. We have to do we we've got housing that's rising.

00:19:27:12 - 00:19:46:26

We've got, homes, homeowners that can't pay to be inside of homes. Right. Because they can't save enough money to get their mostly because they have college debt that's so outrageous that they won't even be able to pay it off in 25 years. And so how are they able to save money to move into having a starter home?

00:19:46:28 - 00:20:06:28

If they can't, they can't even get through the education that didn't teach them how to pay taxes or or make investments or manage their own capital or do any of those things personally. Right. We're just talking about a job. And so but now we're we're now telling them, oh, you have to have homeownership. Well, how is that even possible?

00:20:07:00 - 00:20:21:25

I don't know. So no, no, you're right. I mean, we need to stop complaining about all the student debt that's out there and stop accruing it in the first place. And I'm not into higher education. I have a lot of it, and we need it. But you need to go with a plan. You don't need it for everything.

00:20:21:25 - 00:20:41:03

And it just means we need to change the defunct. well, this is what you're doing after high school, right? It needs to be more thoughtful. One of the things that I would like to someday create, And I don't think it would be that hard to do. I just need to find the right person to help with this part.

00:20:41:03 - 00:21:03:01

But I think that we can create an assessment that would help if I and I do struggle with this. Right? Like there's a zillion I've taken every single one of them personality assessments out there, every one of them I can tell you exactly. Yeah. Enneagram seven through and through. The wing of one. Right. You know. Yeah. Entj. You know, I got them all.

00:21:03:03 - 00:21:23:15

But, you know, there's none of them that will tell you what you think you might want to do when you get done with high school. And I've got, again, my girls right now, they're like, what career are you thinking of? Are you kidding me? They're 12 and 14. They're not thinking about career yet. But what I can tell you as a parent is that my oldest daughter loves building Legos.

00:21:23:15 - 00:21:51:14

She absolutely loves it. She is very she draws inside lines. She likes straight angles, like everything about her. And I'm like, she's a builder. She has 100%. If she were going to go into higher education, I would steer her into architecture, engineering. If she's going another direction, I, I know where she fits in the traits space right and would do very well.

00:21:51:17 - 00:22:15:23

And so it's like if you taught if you gave me a room full of kids, I want to know who likes Legos, and I can come up with some jobs that you're going to probably like, I want to know my painters and who likes to paint in the lines and who likes to paint all over the paper. Yeah, because we're going to talk about spell finishing and you can make a fortune and you're going to never have to paint in the line in your life.

00:22:15:26 - 00:22:35:24

But my people who have to have straight lines, well, perfect. This is what you're doing over here at work. And then you really cut in. And so like, how do we create an assessment to help go back to when you were children before the world told you what you had to do and you just got to play, what did you like to do?

00:22:35:26 - 00:22:55:27

I mean, they always talked about like some of the best airline pilots in the, in the world are those people that were playing Nintendo, right? Yeah. Because that's how you operated it. And they, you know, that industry was like, we can't wait for the people who are playing with joysticks. And and you know, it's direct skill. Crossover is what it comes down to orderly.

00:22:55:27 - 00:23:18:03

So like let's not make this more complicated than what it needs to be. Right. But how do we go back to who they were when they were kids, before they had anxiety and depression from social media and everybody said, this is what you have to go do. And it's there's so many different pieces that go into that because it really does come down to, you know, how kids are being raised, how what opportunities parents are giving them when they're young.

00:23:18:06 - 00:23:35:25

And I think there's I hate to say it, but I've seen so many parents who the iPad and and video games are what they give them to babysit, basically. So whether it's watching videos or playing video games. So doing those kinds of things, and I think that goes ahead and robs the children of the opportunity to explore things like playing with Legos.

00:23:35:28 - 00:23:58:12

So playing with Lincoln Logs, what, you know, painting, doing arts and crafts. So all the different things that and I and I can't say, I mean, it's the parents fault, but at the same time, I know the parents are doing the best they can with what they've got at this time and there. So a lot of them so overworked that literally they just give them something so that they can have a moment of peace or the ability to do something else that is just as important at that time.

00:23:58:15 - 00:24:16:09

so that's part of the problem as society is right now is how do we go ahead and, and create those spaces for the kids to even begin to explore that and then create the awareness for the parents to be able to help them guide the kids towards things that might work out more effectively based off of the things that they've been interested in and things they've shown interest.

00:24:16:09 - 00:24:52:23

And, to that point and it's it becomes a full reeducation. So, you know, obviously preschool teachers might be the very best or. Why? Because I'm a big believer there's nature versus nurture. Right. And, you know, I am huge believer in Gallup strengths because those they I am sort of like this person. I just want everybody to be happy because, you know, Gallup says that if you are doing something that you are naturally successful at, you will therefore be happy and therefore successful.

00:24:52:25 - 00:25:17:05

And I have seen it over and over and over again. And it is you have to give people the opportunity to do those things that their naturally good at. And I love the Clifton Strengthsfinder and it is going to tell you what you're naturally good at. But if you don't have a coach and someone who can go back to, you know, a really great parent who can say, you know, going back to what they what did they like to do when they were three?

00:25:17:05 - 00:25:35:29

And how do you take what they're now really good at with what they naturally love to do and gravitate and figure out what that career looks like for them? How do you get there? Right? I don't know, it's really fascinating. And again, I eat with my kids right now being 12 and 14, this is on my mind a lot right now.

00:25:35:29 - 00:26:17:12

Well, it's kind of one of those things. It's like I, I came from an entrepreneurial background. My mother was a serial entrepreneur, but she always just pushed us out there. But the one thing that she did that I am eternally grateful for was that she exposed us to so many different qualities of life and so many different, interactions with different people, with different, entertainment, with different foods, with different places like our our mission wasn't to to do the same thing over and over again, but her mission was to like, okay, let me expose you to this world.

00:26:17:20 - 00:26:42:14

Now, let me expose you to this world. Now, let me expose you to food over here versus food over here. Let me expose you to what? This entertainment. Like what? It was the ballet. Or we went to Disney or we went to, you know, watch a waterfall park. It was, let's do all these different experiences. And one of the things that we would do in the car would be we talk about, do we like it doing that, like it?

00:26:42:15 - 00:27:02:29

Why do we like it? Why do we not like it? So that we can figure out what we like? I don't think that conversations being had, what with parents and children. I tried to have that conversation with my kids, but universally, I don't think that that conversation is being had. And I think we get them into free, pre-K, kindergarten, first grade.

00:27:02:29 - 00:27:29:22

And we say, okay, now you're in the structured learning program. Yeah. And I'm almost like, well, I've got an eight year old. And he is he's an ingenious person trying to figure things out. And he is. So, in tune with, oh, okay, that person did this, this person did that. And he loves numbers. And I already know that he is going to be somewhere in the math realm of trying to figure things out.

00:27:29:22 - 00:27:48:29

Right. And I'm going to try to pull him into the construction world so he can help understand how to, like, run around all your data analytics and and do all the backend numbers. It all goes, I'm like, okay, I got you got you got ten more years, you're coming in to work. But that, you know, I don't know, I, I don't know, I'm an old parent now and I've got a lot of young kids.

00:27:49:01 - 00:28:11:12

I'm the oldest dad in the, in the parent room. And a lot of these guys are they don't have a clue of how to parent number one, there's no parity class. Is there no exposure to those things. And we're not giving them opportunities. But I think it would be amazing if we had an area where they just put a bunch of toys in a room and said, okay, you can play with anything.

00:28:11:12 - 00:28:33:13

All day long for the next month and let's see what they gravitate towards, right? I think that's what is that education process, the Montessori school. Yeah. Thank you. I think that's a great idea to be able to kind of like start reverting back to some of those or have those kids because they really get to dive into what is their passion and what do they like?

00:28:33:16 - 00:28:50:25

I know over in Europe they have their, not as their pets, but they have a similar to that where they make determinations early on, they get six seventh grade where they say, okay, you're going to go to university and learn this and you're going to go this way or that, and you're going to be a labor bill that just takes orders.

00:28:50:28 - 00:29:07:10

I don't think that we need to have something like that, but I think we do need to have a creative outlet where they can explore their ideas and explore their their talents and try to figure out where they where they thrive. Instead of saying, okay, we don't care about your talents, we just want you to do X, Y, and Z.

00:29:07:13 - 00:29:24:20

So it's it's definitely for that challenge comes in because I don't think the majority of schools do that because it's not it's not what school is designed for. So schools is literally designed to create a good employee. So is what school is designed for. It's all it's there for. Well, and that's it goes ahead and holds kids back because I mean, I even think about like Jen, you're talking about the tests and things like that.

00:29:24:26 - 00:29:43:06

And it's funny because whenever I take those tests, so I especially certain of them, you can go ahead and shift the results however you want to shift the results. And then it becomes the piece of, all right, what have I been programed that what I should be doing as opposed to who I actually am? And do I answer that way or do I answer, you know, honestly how I feel about things?

00:29:43:08 - 00:29:59:22

And I think those are that's where the challenge comes in, is when you started doing it too late, you've already started to get that compliance factor coming in to this is what people expect to me. This is what society expects of me. So this is what I've got to do, you know? And that's it's one of the bigger challenges is how do you get away from that?

00:29:59:22 - 00:30:14:12

How do you get kids back to that point where they're able to be able to be creative, to be able to explore, to be able to find what actually resonates with them. And honestly is one way to do that. So it's like, how do you get that out to everybody else? Because a lot of times in me at least Montessori here in Florida.

00:30:14:18 - 00:30:27:23

So I mean, that's private school is what that comes down to. So that's money that's coming out of parents pockets, which means that you've got a certain number of parents that can do that. So I want a certain number of parents that unfortunately don't have the opportunity or the ability to make that happen. It's like, how do we go ahead and change those pieces?

00:30:27:23 - 00:30:42:23

And it's those are huge questions to be able to be, you know, more effective for society overall. And that's what we're talking about here. So how do we get to that point? What what gets created, what changes need to be made, or at least how do we start exploring it? And even if it is as the people get older.

00:30:42:26 - 00:30:59:07

So we give them that opportunity, like Jen's done with hammers and flip flops. So people getting that opportunity to go ahead and do those things on their own like that because like, I mean, like Nate, you said you grew up, doing those times, you did those projects, you did those things with your, you know, with your dad and with your family about going and doing some construction type things.

00:30:59:07 - 00:31:15:12

Like, I never did any of that. I was one of those people that you guys are talking about whenever you come in, have zero skills, because I didn't learn that. I grew up in a single parent household. My mom did, not me. My mom could do basic things, so, but she didn't really ever involve us in that. And I didn't have anyone in our life who went through that.

00:31:15:15 - 00:31:30:03

And I even had those apprehensions. Whenever I went to work for the first construction company, I went, I mean, I literally do zero. So I wonder if I started working and Nate and I always joke about it's like the first day, what are you doing? You're cleaning up the job. That's all you do all day long. You just clean up the job site and bring materials and clean up the job site and bring materials.

00:31:30:05 - 00:31:44:03

And that's what I did. That was like the first month and a half, so that I was there as I was learning because I didn't know how to read it. I mean, I know how to write a roller because we actually had rollers in school at that point. so that part I already knew. But, you know, for anything else, I had zero skills.

00:31:44:05 - 00:32:07:08

And getting kids that don't have those skills or that ability comfortable with being uncomfortable and exploring the new thing is always where the challenges, is getting them to step forward. That same challenge, like Jen was talking about for women, is that they feel they need to know so much, so much more than what it meant. Well, a lot of times to be able to take that step forward, how do we encourage that BS so and get them out there?

00:32:07:08 - 00:32:30:18

Doing Mormon hammers and flip flops is one of those ways. And Nate on our side, it's like, how do we go ahead and bring that in the Concordia University to bring in people who wouldn't ever take that step forward and realize that, hey, I won't go ahead and I'll see how this works out. You know, that's part of why we have that set up that way, as they can come in and they start one track and maybe that track isn't the thing for maybe they don't want to do drywall once they get in there, maybe, like Jen's, I'll hire someone else to go and do my my finishing in my sanding.

00:32:30:25 - 00:32:52:06

So my texturing, but you know, and they get into something else that maybe they're like painting, maybe like be an electrician, maybe like going and being the plumber, whatever the case may be, those I think are some of the big questions. So for us is how do we go ahead and create that and encourage that in, you know, in our own local areas and then even bigger as we go along?

00:32:52:08 - 00:33:15:03

Yeah. Big questions for sure. So and that's something that I you know this is where whenever you're if you're listening to this let us know if you've got thoughts on this. I would love to hear what everyone else any of our listeners, what they're thinking, what their fears are about it. I mean, I mean Jen's expressed some of the ones that she knows from the ladies that she's talked to and from the young ladies that she's talked to whenever she's been talking to school aged children and stuff like that.

00:33:15:06 - 00:33:32:03

What are those things that hold people back, especially on the women side of things? Because I agree with what Jen said. We can get so many more women involved in this and they're such, like I said, 50% or about 50% of the population. So right now, a lot of them don't feel comfortable even making this an option on the construction side and getting into the trades.

00:33:32:05 - 00:33:45:25

Let us know what's out there. I mean, there's people just like Nate and I who are very open to figuring those pieces out and how to make it work for everybody. We do it all the time anyways. So with the different crews that we work with, what what's it going to take, you know, what are you looking for?

00:33:45:25 - 00:34:03:12

What can we do better? What can we do different. You know. And that's like like the one thing I think of for, for Jen with a question for you would be, you know, for women on the, on the mindset side, what are some of the things that we can help with on a mindset side with women to help them realize that the trades are an option so that they can be something that works for them?

00:34:03:15 - 00:34:24:02

I mean, is there are there things there that you can think of from our side as business owners and as educators in this industry that could help bring them forward? So in step past what might be holding them back? Yeah, it's an interesting question. I think that cameras and flip flops are still too new right now. And, you know, I'm a knowledge junkie.

00:34:24:04 - 00:34:44:29

And so it's my it's my learning ground right now. It's my I get the audience to ask the questions too, and learn from them and figure it out as we go. It's a closed membership community, by design. So I'm only opening the doors a few times a year. I want to make sure that our members have the best experience.

00:34:45:01 - 00:35:10:24

when I built it, it was very intentional, with a few different pieces and one being the lives and and, you know, people join things for all different reasons. One being the community. And another piece is that all of the videos that I did when I did my home remodel, there's like 80 of them or all the videos that were written instructions, they were easy to add supply lists.

00:35:10:24 - 00:35:35:02

One of my frustrations when I was, you know, everything is to figure out. And people would say, you know, why would somebody, you know, maybe pay the belong to this when they can just go YouTube? But. Well, because when I would go YouTube, whatever it was I was trying to do, I got real tired real quick. I was looking at 25 or 50 different videos, different men with different tools, telling me different ways to do it.

00:35:35:02 - 00:35:53:23

And I'm like, where's the girl? I've seen somebody that just says, listen, there are 50 other ways to do this, but here's the way that it'll work. Here's this playlist, add it to your cart checkout, and here's how you do it. But the other thing I built with this community that was really important to me is having a help button.

00:35:53:25 - 00:36:18:18


Because you can't ask YouTuber, I ran into a problem. What do I do about this? Or you know what? What what wouldn't you use for this? Right? They didn't give you all the details. And so our coaching center allows our members to access DIY lovers and, you know, designers and hire them for a half hour. Just say, hey, before I start this project, talk me through this.

00:36:18:18 - 00:36:44:23

And that's all the other part of like, the preparation. We all know that 50% of the success of an outcome of a project is having everything ready and having the plan before you go into it. A lot of people don't know that, right? Right. And so it's just creating that safe community. And then without mansplaining and you know, I get it on social, I, I will be, you know, doing some you know I post some video and I mean it never fails.

00:36:44:23 - 00:37:00:27

I'm like, what, don't you guys have anything better to do? You know, they want to tell me that I, I should have done this or I did this wrong, or why didn't I use that tool or whatever. Then I get the same thing. So it's not just you matter to get the job done, it's the Nate. It's good enough.

00:37:00:27 - 00:37:19:11

And I think one of the things that I learned from my dad was he's like, listen, anything can be fixed. Don't worry about screwing it up. And there's not one way to get it done somewhere a little easier. It's not uncommon even for the problems to have to do things 2 or 3 times, sometimes to get it right.

00:37:19:16 - 00:37:43:13

Right. You're not doing anything wrong. And just just if it works, it works. And I learned that conversation in my head. When you talk about mindset, that's what I needed to know. Yeah. And I think that's huge then. And it is that's that's the great advice for no matter what industry. And but definitely in this one because it is there's as much art is there as science when it comes down to construction.

00:37:43:13 - 00:37:57:07

There's no question about it. And the science part of it is you're right. Like I have three different tile people that I use. So each one of them likes to do their bathrooms in a different way as far as what they use for substrates. So what they used for waterproofing and things like that, none of them are wrong.

00:37:57:07 - 00:38:12:16

All of them work. So as far as that goes, and that's the key piece is, you know, I give them what they want to do the job in the manner that they know that they're going to be confident in the result in the very end. So and that's come from, you know, years of, of me just being open to not having just one solution.

00:38:12:22 - 00:38:26:28

There's a and that's like whenever I get those social media comments that you're talking about. John. Yeah, I tend to do that. I roll my eyes and I'm like, that's the usually first time. Like that's an I said, I love your option. I said, then there's many routes to the same finish. So that's usually how I finish out any of those comments.

00:38:27:00 - 00:38:40:26

because that's it. And it's, you know, it's the easiest thing to go ahead and say, I'm not going to go back and forth with them. That's a key piece though for women. Right. And I think women realize that they've been a lot of times more than men do, so that there are multiple routes to get to that same end result.

00:38:40:28 - 00:38:54:18

and for us as business owners to encourage that piece. So, and realize that, like you talked about before, Jen, is they women may have a different idea whenever they come in. And the guys have been doing it the way that guys have been taught to do it forever, because that's what we've been taught to do, and that's how you do it.

00:38:54:18 - 00:39:07:20

And there's no question that's because that's how you do it is what it comes down to. And, you know, and for women, being able to go ahead and provide a different perspective and that, that, hey, what do you ever think about doing it this way now? And for guys, that's what it comes down to in the building industry.

00:39:07:24 - 00:39:26:24

You know, for the men that are in this industry already is being open all the time, whether it's from comments from another male in the industry or whether it's from a female coming into the industry that you're working with, being open is always going to lead you to a better result overall. So and to a higher level. So of people you're working with, your business is going to grow better for the business owner.

00:39:26:28 - 00:39:41:14

So you're going to do better just being open like that. but yeah, there's the great thing about construction is you can screw it up and then you can redo it. So as long as you catch the screw up early enough that it doesn't start trickling down, though. But yes, you get the opportunity to go ahead and fix it when.

00:39:41:16 - 00:39:53:15

Because then that's the great thing because you see it now. So it's not like something that a lot of times is going to have to take a long time to figure out you did it wrong. So you're going to figure it out, right? You just need to have that confidence to say, oh, hold on, I screwed that up.

00:39:53:16 - 00:40:10:17

This is going to take another, another go around. And sometimes you're like, me, I can live with this, you know? And I always felt like that way about my own house and I. And that's what I coach these women about. I'm like, listen, this is your own house. Nobody's paying you to do this. So it's not perfect. It's your practice ground.

00:40:10:17 - 00:40:30:01

It's okay. Right. The best place to have it because it doesn't. I mean, as long as you're good with it. So. And if you've got to go back and rework it, it doesn't matter. No one's judging it. Just go back and do what you want to do. It doesn't matter. You know, I think the other piece of this that, it the mindset piece a little bit, but you in this again it's not just construction.

00:40:30:03 - 00:40:56:01

We are lacking communication skills in our society as a whole, especially in the younger generations, because we actually need to have conversations with people and they can't text me their answers. Well, they'll try to and, and you know, you've got then you've got women that are already I mean, I've witnessed this for 20 years in the legal field that they're scared to speak up.

00:40:56:01 - 00:41:30:28

They're they're in in female partners with male partners. I watch it over and over and over again. That female will not stand their ground and speak up and say what they think, and I it it kills me. It crushes me. And how do you change that? One of the reasons I was so successful, I think was somewhere along the line in, in the corporate world and in managing, I was working with doctors and lawyers and, you know, lots of men and very, very lots of men with very big egos.

00:41:30:28 - 00:41:55:15

Yes, very big egos, very intelligent. And I loved it because I like I love working with smart people. And they I like people who make me think and challenge the way bit that I do. And, and so I never minded it. But I think part of it is understanding we're all human. It does not matter whether you are Michael Jordan or whether you have never played basketball in your life.

00:41:55:15 - 00:42:19:10

Everybody struggles with the not enough. The it was this good enough was this who am I? You know the same feelings we are that that is it's just so you know how people present. I think if you just understand, at the end of the day, we still all put our pants on the same way, and we still have the same human functions and the same human feelings.

00:42:19:13 - 00:42:44:08

It it tries to equalize it. But I think you also have to have a true north. And for me, when I started working in these spaces where it was challenging that I had multiple bosses, I had 12 partners and each one of them were signing my paycheck. So some of their egos were bigger than others. Some of them brought in more business than somebody else, so their voices should have been counted.

00:42:44:08 - 00:43:06:13

Somebody was on a committee and somebody wasn't. And early on, I was 26 years old when I started managing my first law firm. There were, you know, I mean, 50 lawyers and 50 people. And it was it was a big firm. And then a while and I had no idea what I was doing. And early on, I was getting kind of pushed around 26 years old, brand new walking in.

00:43:06:16 - 00:43:19:14

And you know, the the lawyers are, you know, you should do this, you know, and I got myself in some hot water a couple of times because I had listened to one of them. And, you know, somebody would be like, why did you do that? Well, because they told me to. Well, he doesn't have a booth, you know?

00:43:19:14 - 00:43:44:23

And I was like, okay. I decided that I will always, always operate in the best interest of the company that I'm working for. And then when I am on the witness stand and somebody says, why did you do what you did? I made the best decision in the interest of the company and not any one individual. Now, people that play a part in that at some point, that's how I operate today too.

00:43:44:23 - 00:44:16:29

So I think, however, whether that's your true north or something else, it needs to be neutral, not emotional. What is what? This isn't personal. It's business. What is in the best interest of the homeowner of the of the company, of, you know, where is that? And then when you, I think can find that and you want to voice your opinion, it's grounded on something that is more neutral, that isn't an emotion isn't changing, right?

00:44:16:29 - 00:44:37:21

Yeah. I call it a lens. You know, it's the lens in which you view. And so, you know, and this this is a struggle for both men and women. Right? Is from you know, it's not like the guys that you were talking about earlier that are, that are putting in, you know, constraints on women for working faster than them.

00:44:37:21 - 00:44:55:02

And I'm saying, hey, wait, wait, slow down, slow down. You're going to make me look bad. He's looking at it through the lens of what's best for the company. He's looking at it through the lens of what's best for him and and vice versa on the female side. Right. They're like, well, I need to do x, Y and Z, right.

00:44:55:05 - 00:45:25:16

And how to how do I accomplish that? And it's more important than the company. Right. So it's like, how do you train people to look through the lens of how do I put my goals in and the company's goals in alignment? And you mentioned earlier the peak periods pregnancy in pumping, pumping, and, and, and that those things are important because they are they're about childcare, right.

00:45:25:17 - 00:46:03:09

Or a part of the child life. Right. Especially in the early stages. But it's also just an ongoing conversation like, okay, how do we make that align with the company goals? And so does that mean that we need to set it up? You know, times that they can come in or go out or time off. Is it is it a maternity leave, component that and I and I'm in I'm in favor for maternity leave because I think it's important both for male and female to spend time with a child at an early age to have connection, because I think so.

00:46:03:09 - 00:46:30:03

Money, parents, including myself, have given up children too early, and now we're letting strangers be connected to parents. But that's my own personal thing. But I. I try to still that in the company. But it has to be a view, a lens of like, how do I project my personal goals and align them with the company goals and then make decisions based on the company to kind of help move forward?

00:46:30:05 - 00:47:06:10

Because ultimately my goal is not to have employees, my goal is to have owner operators that I partner with. Right. And so I think that's another big distinction is like some of these people, they just want employees. They want to tell them when to come in, when to work out of work, all those things. But they never give them guidance into their own personal right, or they don't give them education for them to be able to save money or prepare for a trip or any of those things because they just see them as you're my employee, you're going to work for me and that's it.

00:47:06:18 - 00:47:29:15

And I think that part of the conversation that isn't being discussed amongst business owners, right? It's like we all need employees. But how do you elevate an employee from nothing into a workable person to a manager to then a partner? You know, and I think that conversation, to be honest, because I think they view things out of that lens.

00:47:29:18 - 00:47:54:18

They might be having different conversations of like, how do we have that work life balance that everybody seems to talk about, but nobody seems to define? So well? I think there's there's one other piece that I, that I skipped, I think super important when you talk about women in construction and in the trades, again, referencing Gallup, it's super important that everybody has a best friend at work.

00:47:54:20 - 00:48:18:16

And what you just hit on is that is this is an issue for women. We need to know that when people work for managers, not companies, right? They leave managers, they don't leave companies. We as women need to know that our at a minimum manager cares care about my family. They care about me, they care about my feelings.

00:48:18:16 - 00:48:46:14

And I'm not just the employee. And they can if the manager doesn't care, but they have a best friend at work, they are more tolerant. And so I think you need I mean, you know and and know that this is going to be hard until we get more women in the workplace, but companies are going to need to make their very, very, very best attempt to never put one female on a job site by herself.

00:48:46:14 - 00:49:10:05

She needs another woman, she needs a friend. And even if they're not best friends per se, there is a connection there of a get it right. Like whatever it is, you know, I there's just that that's there. And I think that's going to be a great point. That's a that's a good point. You just thought of the ones you know I've never thought of that.

00:49:10:05 - 00:49:40:23

And and I thank you for bringing that point up because I have had women, working for me for the last decade. And there have been times where they've been the sole woman on the job. And looking back just right now, as you're you're laying this out, I can see where some of the extra stress that was happening in their life just because they were on the job site, even though they knew the guys, there wasn't any kind of like anything else.

00:49:40:28 - 00:50:04:05

It was just they were alone in that world. And that that's an excellent point. because I've had others that team up and they come together and they work together and, and sometimes they get along, sometimes they don't. but that is an excellent point. They need a support staff. It's like whenever you see an agenda, like the one I was writing down as I was taking notes.

00:50:04:08 - 00:50:22:29

Yes, I'm taking notes while you're talking. Thank you. I appreciate you. and the piece that I looked at with that was like with page. So I want to make more of an effort then for the crews that send out women onto the, onto the site to be able to do things. It's like, I want to make sure that she's the one that's going in checking on those job sites and things like that, more so than I do.

00:50:23:02 - 00:50:40:24

So at this point, just to go ahead and create a little bit of that so and help build that because like, I mean, like we said, there's not a whole lot of women out here yet. So getting them teamed up is going to take a lot more effort to go ahead and make that happen, especially in the beginning, until you go out and get more and more people out of here, and then it'll become easier.

00:50:40:26 - 00:51:00:29

which I would love to have. and yet it's just it's being aware of those things, and it might even come down to, you know, any one of the other things I would think of and I don't know whether. Do you have any female project project managers, construction managers at this point or. Yeah, I've got two, I've got two female project managers, and then I've got four assistants at the office that are that are supporting everybody.

00:51:00:29 - 00:51:26:18

But, it isn't me, but I, my, my four in the office definitely gravitate to the two that are in the field, more so than the guys. And they'll support the guys and all that. But but they always when they go out, they want to make sure that one of the other female project managers are the ones that are educating them, not the males, which I find that interesting.

00:51:26:21 - 00:51:46:15

And the two female project managers that are that are in the field, they want education from the one of the oldest guys in the company, because he's kind of like the dad grandpa that they feel comfortable. And I'm perfectly happy with that because I don't want any kind of anybody feeling uncomfortable and giving and kind of go through that.

00:51:46:17 - 00:52:14:25

So it's interesting to have this conversation and to dive into it, to be able to understand some of the things that I just don't get. But I'm starting to understand through this conversation, I was like, okay, there's some internal things that I bypassed by not not knowing or filling it myself that I, that I now recognize that, okay, that's the reason why they because some of the girls in the office and some of the girls in the field, they don't really get along, but they like, they like.

00:52:14:28 - 00:52:31:00

All right, let's put our our things aside to make this thing work. And that makes 100% understand that. So now I was even thinking on that side. I mean, like one of the things that I'm going to do is on my because with Alice working from the house and taking care of a lot of the back end stuff for us.

00:52:31:03 - 00:52:49:20

So having her go out even into the field to at times just even just to go see page on project sites so that she's got a little bit of that support out there. And I know we've got multiple I've got multiple business partners that have, women working in various roles, but even making sure that she gets the opportunity to go and talk to some of the, the salespeople in the owners of companies that are out there.

00:52:49:20 - 00:53:05:09

And so, because the natural thing for most known as the call me because they've been working with me for well over a decade now, so I'm the first phone call and, you know, getting her to be that point person to be especially to be able to deal with them, will probably support the business partner as much as a support page.

00:53:05:16 - 00:53:24:14

So when they get the chance to actually interact with more females as well and just have a little bit more camaraderie, well, and that that whole piece right there, I think would be is helpful overall for looking for ways for anyone who's in this industry. And if you've got a business and this is to go ahead and work or look for ways to go and put those pieces together like that, to be able to go ahead and create more of that.

00:53:24:18 - 00:53:50:17

So and more of that connection, because that's what it comes down to is connection. It's connections. And and women that that also same advice for business owners in this industry when you do bring women in men again comes down to this communication piece. You process your feelings differently. And so, you know, guys can like disagree about something and, you know, move on very quickly.

00:53:50:17 - 00:54:25:07

You know, like whatever, you know, fine. And then they and there can be some harsh words that are said, there can be no yes. But always say that it can be threats. Yes. Exactly. So then it's over, right? It's over. And you act like nothing happened. That's not how women operate. And so if that. But women need to know that if a guy says something like that on a job site, however, they're expressing their unhappiness with whatever was going on, especially if it's directly involving her, if she needs to know that or not.

00:54:25:07 - 00:54:49:15

This is not another female where now this is going to like be a thing. This was just a moment and move on. So it's education on both sides of how they need to be working right now. Love that. So Nate, any other questions for Jen while we have her? I'm just I'm I'm so impressed. And I think you're doing a phenomenal job.

00:54:49:17 - 00:55:09:06

you tapped into a market that is absolutely, needed. you're doing a great job with cultivating it. I'm thoroughly impressed. I want to see how this grows. I like to figure out how we're all going to be able to work together. Because I think that there's a lot of symmetry here that that can help drive this industry.

00:55:09:09 - 00:55:27:22

there is a big gap with, with mothers that need to, you know, encourage their kids to be able to pick up tools and do things and, and then do it for themselves so they feel they feel comfortable and happy in their own home. But I, I'm just impressed. And I'm I'm thankful. Thankful for the time today.

00:55:27:25 - 00:55:51:29

Yeah. I'm happy. So thank you. Thank you. Well, likewise. This is a massive, massive fraud problem. Like, just, you know, it's not going to be one person or any, you know, 2 or 3 that fix it. It's going to take the whole country working together to exactly get it done. It's kind of like what you said before, where you said you had this, conversation that you kept, you know, not right now.

00:55:52:01 - 00:56:09:25

We'll get back to you. I've got other things. I've had that same conversation. It's been really loud. It keeps getting louder. It's like, all right, we got to bring these people back to the center to be able to kind of, like, have them do the function and the and the need. And I've got a big goal and dream and he's come along with me on this.

00:56:09:25 - 00:56:34:09

And I think the more people that we can kind of get involved in and talk about it, that's where we start to make change. And so I'm extremely encouraged and I only have one thing to say, Jen. And I've got to go ahead and make the comments because the company is named after that for you. So the hammers and flip flops, if they make that transition from being hammers and flip flops into actually getting into the industry, they're going to have to get others to comply and put boots or steel toe tips on.

00:56:34:12 - 00:56:50:16

So that's what they're going to have to do. So I think that only if they don't work for themselves here. Now, I don't know if they're on a job site, their insurance company will make sure they've got okay. You're right, you're right, you're right. Should I do it on your, do it on your own home? Right. If you do it on your home, do it however you want.

00:56:50:16 - 00:57:09:11

Somebody I love that piece. thank you for coming. I really appreciate you being here. live in mission. You know that. We've had those conversations for years now. support that in every way we possibly can. for everyone who's listening. So make sure to hop into the show notes at the end. So gentle. Have contact information for Jen for any of the women who want to get involved in hammers and flip flops.

00:57:09:11 - 00:57:24:07

The next time she opens it up, then you'll be able to go ahead and get involved with that. I think it's an awesome piece. I look forward to seeing how you grow it. So what it turns into definitely ways to work together in the future, it's going to be exciting. And the more women that we can get in this industry, to me, it's better.

00:57:24:07 - 00:57:38:18

I've always. And I've always worked better with women in the companies that I've worked with. so I would love to have more of them. I mean, my actually, my company is female dominated, on that side of things. And I'm good with that. So it works really well. So especially for me, so more when we can get in, the better this will be.

00:57:38:18 - 00:57:57:23

It gives people opportunities and just expands the, the options that are out there. So and that's what I love to see is that ability to go ahead and do that. Thanks for being here Jen. really appreciate it. It's such a fun conversation. Great. Great Saturday morning. Thank you. Will you.